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Ship lap logs to build a wofati

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vertical ship lap log


horizontzl ship lap Log

My idea is to use the electric saw mill to make a notch on each side of the logs so they fit tight together. If you cut in about 2 inches the cut at right angles is about 4 inches making the thickness at the lap about 8 inches at the lap with a 12 inch log. This improves thermal stability and nearly eliminate infiltration. Vertical logs could be used for front midle and back walls. Horizontal logs could be placed atop gradually increasing taler logs to make an arched roof. This would greatly simplify the building process.

I will try to get sketchup to cooperate and illustrate this in a later post.

Seasoned wood?

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I am curious. Is it necessary to season the wood for a wofati? If so can anyone direct me to the best info on doing this?

Thanks for your time.

Building wofati into a saw dust pile?

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Our land is basically clay with a small bit of soil on top. The water table is only 10 feet underground. There is a massive sawdust pile that is at least 30 years old that is partially decomposed. The highest point is about 20 - 30 feet off the ground. I've just finished reading Mike Oehler's book and I am leaning towards the shed roof flat land design. Could anyone make a suggestion as to whether building into this saw dust pile would work and if it would be advisable? Thank you so much for your time. :)

This is what Id like to build:

Walipini Greenhouses up North

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I was researching greenhouse styles that would support the growth of citrus plants in Northern climates. I came upon this article regarding in ground greenhouses. In the article, the author states that "it’s possible to grow sub-tropical plants without an additional heat source in regions where sub-zero temperatures are common". -> http://www.realworldsurvivor.com/2013/10/28/underground-greenhouses/#geogreenhouse2

I live in zone 4 NH. Obviously, there are many ways to build a walipini greenhouse... what building strategies would you recommend for building a greenhouse that maintains 50-60' temps seen in the article? The Ott-Kimm Conservatory boasts a zone 8 micro-climate in a zone 4 area. They dug 5 feet below the ground’s surface, and poured 6-inch-thick reinforced concrete walls. Would this be a good baseline? Citrus plants can grow to zone 8, so technically they would be able to grow in a greenhouse that replicates a zone 8 climate (according to this article).

Opinions? What do you think?

If it were possible to keep the greenhouse at 50', would black soldier fly larvae be able to hibernate there overwinter?

What would be Jay C. White Cloud's wofati foundation??

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Jay,

I have read many of your posts in these forums and have learned a lot from them. I really appreciate your careful and thoughtful style and find myself reading your posts very slowly in order to absorb all the information contained in them. I haven't seen you tackle much regarding the wofati concept and even seem to remember one post where you said you were deliberately avoiding the topic in order to let other folks hash it out on there own. I am considering the wofati concept for here in Missouri but have some concerns regarding the "post in the ground" type foundation and would really appreciate your input on the topic.

We get at least twice as much rainfall here as in Idaho (Mike Oheler) or western Montana (Wheaton Labs) and the soil has a lot more clay in it here than in those locations. Those two factors have me concerned about the life expectancy of a timber underground here. In addition to that, if I recall correctly, Allerton Abbey experienced some settling in the downhill wall that led to cracked windows and a back door that wouldn't open after having 3 feet or earth piled on top of it.

To address both the moisture and settling issue I am considering employing a rubble trench type foundation constructed with very large stone plinth at the bottom of the trench for each post to sit on, and then having crushed rock packed around the posts all the way up to floor level.

I would like to be able to get the posts above grade to address the moisture issue but I think that having the posts in the ground, below floor level, would be necessary to prevent the wall from shifting in as earth was piled up outside. So if the posts have to go in the ground, then I think that having the posts sit on a well drained, solid foundation would address both moisture and settling issues. Of course the earth works outside the building, especially in the uphill patio region would be shaped to facilitate water moving away from the building.

So if Jay C. White Cloud was going to attempt a wofati, what kind of foundation would that building sit on?



How do I attach EPDM to concrete underground?

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We have a 4 ft high concrete block crawlspace finished and ready to start the wooden structure on top of it for our cordwood house. Finished that last summer and this summer we will be backfilling and starting the woodwork. 3/4's of this crawlspace will be fully or partially bermed underground. Trying to figure out the best way to seal and insulate this wall completely. I have 4 rolls of epdm roofing rolls that were given to me. My thought is glue the epdm to the concrete blocks then glue foam board insulation on top of that and backfill. Didn't seem like any need to cover the foam board with anything. Rob Roy didn't cover the foam board before he backfilled in his book Earth Sheltered House. Is there a epdm glue out there that will adhere to both concrete and foam board or else a tar based product that I can imbed the epdm in and foam board. Doesn't seem to be products compatible with both mediums. Would really like to use the epdm as it was free and should work excellent. Any thoughts on this method or better ideas? House site in general has excellent drainage and there will also be a french drain around the exterior. We are planning to do a climate controlled crawl space.

Ice House for free summer cooling.

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I haven't seen much online about ice houses.

In the old days an ice house was an insulated underground house where you went and cut ice from a pond and lined the walls with ice which would last all year.
My modern version only adds some permanent plastic water containers with sawdust added to the ice for more insulation and the process is just open the doors in winter for the freeze.

It seems like such a simple idea. What am I missing?

General berm/bury input and material consideratons

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Not sure if this is the best category for this, this is certainly no wofati, but my main concerns are about the earth berm/bury so hopefully this is the best place to seek input.

Beyond any general observations or recommendations folks interested in building science and function or earth berm/bury might have, I'm primarily wondering about realistic "natural" but more importantly structurally superior alternatives to concrete in a foundation situation that would conventionally require "engineered" concrete work. I guess I think I'm wondering about genuine stone walls, but what else don't I know, and I know nothing about modern stone walls either, or concrete really.

In any case our new home site lends itself well to a kind of earth bermed/buried south walkout format of a home, which I'm happy about, but doing that kind of build certainly requires a lot of subterranean wall, where both strength and moisture mitigation would seem paramount. While I have read about concrete's less then ecologically ideal building merits, which do matter to me to an extent, I'm frankly just more interested in building a home with a long generational lifespan, and have read questionable things about the longevity of concrete.

In a home envelope that will be practically half finished before framing etc even starts (lots of foundation), I worry about building a foundation that sets a sooner than otherwise possible termination date for the home and future generations who might otherwise use it. I don't want the hardest component of the home to remedy as it ages, to have one of the earliest expiration dates. I don't know if that truly would be the case with concrete, I just worry it could be and have read some scary things, like that deterioration really sets in after 80 years. That seems unacceptably short to me. I'm opting to build because any preexisting homes on acreage in our budget was already so far gone that it would have cost us a lot more to get them working again than to build new, and that's a conundrum I'm hoping to spare future generations to the best of my ability.

For a bit more context (see sketches and layouts also) I'm planning on building into a 16% grade slope. Pretty clay heavy subsoils. The footprint of home will likely be around 26 feet in depth (north to south, buried into a south-east facing slope) with a broader 36 to 44 foot length east to west "home" portion, maximizing solar exposure and fitting the site well. The "home" portion will also have an attached single stall garage/workshop/cellar/solarium-entry, beside it, keeping the same 26ish depth, but increasing overall width of the whole structure to around 64 feet. I'm so far planning a second floor roughly 20 deep by 36 wide, over the northeast portion of lower main home level. Seems the main level of what I'm drawing here would be considered either a "walk out basement", or "partial basement", or "slab on grade with retaining wall"...nobody who looks at what I'm concepting can seem to agree. No crawlspace beneath so a slab on grade or partial basement floor whatever you prefer to call it. I'm heating this place strictly with wood initially (southwest Wisconsin 4b), but will probably put radiant floor heat tubes into the first level floor for circulating hot water one way or another at some point, if desired.

We are working on a smallish budget, so extraordinarily expensive alternatives to concrete, while nice to know about, may not be able to realistically apply. Thanks for any input!

Thermal mass heating

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I've noticed that in Oehler's books and videos, and in Paul's wofati's that there are typically woodstoves or rocket mass heaters. I'm wondering if anyone has tried it or if it would be helpful to add some below-ground thermal mass heating to eliminate the need for any other heat. I'm thinking a greenhouse either on one side of the wofati or on the uphill patio with pipes taking hot summer air below ground under the house and storing the heat into one giant thermal mass.

Here's one of Geoff Lawton's videos explaining how the thermal mass storage works in a few different settings:
http://geofflawton.com/videos/when-industry-goes-permaculture/

Posts in ground, wrapped or unwrapped?

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I'm using cedar posts for my "wofati". Did Paul wrap his posts like Mike O or not?

How to build a long lasting, healthy, narrow retaining wall

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Hello permieneers! I am building a lean-to roof off the side of my barn and need to create some flat space. I'm digging into the slope next to the barn and need to hold back that dirt (see photo). It will be about 4' high at the barn, 2' high at the other end and about 16' long.

Challenges:
I want to build this with a low environmental impact and low cost.
I'm in a medium-wet climate so buried logs won't last long
I don't want to lose a bunch of future floor space to a gabion cage style wall
I have a foundation repair anchor supporting the barn wall buried in that lump of dirt so I can't dig back more than a foot or so from the future wall position (IE no dead man anchors)
I'd rather not spend $450 on a bunch of retaining wall blocks

Advantages:
My labor is abundant and affordable
The soil is very sandy so I believe it drains well
There is an old footing that extends from the barn across the width of the retaining wall. Problem is that it's 3' inboard of where I want the wall. If it was only 3' farther back... :cry:

Past history:
The backside of the footing was poured up against round logs as a retaining wall. They rotted, the wall failed and the footer disappeared for two decades until we uncovered it.
It isn't square to the barn but I'm ok with the wall not being square. I guess... Who makes a retaining wall 1.5' out of square in 16'? Sheesh....

Current plan:
I think I'll dig out behind the footing 8" deep and lay down some extra cinder blocks I have flat side up. They'll act as a 32" wide cement floor. Then next to those I'll put a row of cinder blocks holey side up as the base of the wall. Then I'll stand 2x4 oak pallet runners into the holes as vertical wall members. I'll have gravel in the cinder block holes to keep the bottom of those runners from staying in contact with damp soil. At this point the "wall" will be a picket fence of oak 2x4s with the bottoms supported back to the footer by the cinder blocks.
I'll put visqueen plastic on the uphill side of the 2x4s to keep dirt from rotting them out. I can tie them together with more oak runners or a 2x12 that runs the length of the top of the wall.
The basic problem that I see is that the bottom of my wall will be kept from kicking out by the footer and blocks. But the top won't have much resistance to tipping.

Are there other ways to do this given my situation? I see wofati walls that appear to be vertical round logs but I'm assuming there is some way that they avoid tipping? And I'm assuming that in a wetter area they would just rot after a decade or less. Maybe I'm wrong though?

Thanks for any help or ideas!!!

Fast underground hidey hole

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My solution. Repuposed bulk bin - 9 ft dia - least surface area, can be moved, can be buried, no maintenance for ever pretty much if coated correctly (rubberized asphaltic basement water proofing) and a very long time of not coated. Field formed SIP made with pourable dock insulation - super high performance. Maybe not green per se but certainly not resources frittered away in a Hummer cruising the mall. Fast, strong, high performance and recyclable. I made my own insulation pump for under $100. When everything is factored in this is a very viable environmentally sound option.

wofati in earthquake country?

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We don't just live in earthquake country, we are about 10 miles from where the San Andres fault meets the ocean.

Granted, in a big quake, nothing is likely to hold up, but I'm still curious.

I've seen the wofati videos and have a good idea of how the structure goes together, but can't wrap my brain around how it would deal with moving earth.

Would it collapse? Would the mass just roll with the rest of the area?

Physicists and geometry nerds welcome.

prepare for the pole structure smunch

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Last year and this year, there has been a fair bit of discussion about "pole structure smunch".  This is where you make a wall that is ten feet tall on the uphill side that is a perfect fit.  And a year later the poles have moved down two inches.  So you have a ten foot tall wall in a space that is two inches shy of ten feet.  And the next year you might lose another inch or two.  At about three years you might lose just half an inch, and then a quarter of an inch after that.

I think there are two things to be done:

1)  mitigate.  When the posts are put into the ground, use the excavator to push down on the posts as hard as the excavator can. This might reduce the smunch about 90% to 95%.  And it will probably create another problem where the posts will have a tough time draining their water.   So I now think the wise thing to do is to put a little gravel in the bottom of the hole to mitigat THAT problem.

2)  engineer.   After #1, there might still be an inch of smunch that will be spread out over five years.  Design everything to embrace that happening.  One idea is to have some dimensional lumber along the top edge of the wall.  Maybe two 2x6's on edge attached to the wall, and one attached to the log at the top.   At the time of the build, the log is two inches taller than the 2x6's on the wall.  In other words, the 2x6 on the log has 2 inches of wood exposed.   Five years later this might be reduced to an inch.

Just felt the need to write this down as I am thinking about it.

What to grow on the roof?

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This page has ten suggestions for earth bermed roofs.  Seems like drought tolerance with earth holding roots that do not try to penetrate too deep would be the criteria. Any experience on the wofai so far?

bermed/underground mobile home

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hi all..... In Mike Oehler's book he made a short statement ...a couple pages ... about placing a mobile home underground with beamed support system surrounding it. My question... has anyone ever done this or investigated it enough to know if it would be a sound idea??? Since reading his book a few years ago, this idea has been milling around in my thoughts off and on. There is no information like it anywhere I have found on the net. SO I thought maybe someone here may have an idea.
My idea would be setting/backing a mobile home(which would already have all wiring, plumbing etc..as opposed to shipping container) under a beamed and concrete walled structure that has been earth bermed. The structure would be built with openings somehow for the windows( for emergency escapes system and light). Then with the front being open it could be turned into an enclosed greenhouse of some sort. This may then be a cheaper way to have an underground home/mobile home(used mobile homes can be found relatively inexpensive) and a safer mobile home living.  Any thoughts or ideas???
thanks for any input...
Teresa

Vegetation on top of a wofati house?

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I been interested in wofati for a while...I am still trying to decide on what kind of house I want......anyway based on my observations it seems that most people choose to use grass as the primary vegetation that covers the roof....is it possible to use blueberries or blackberries instead....I think grass is just a waste when I could be using that space growing food instead....I think perennial crops would be bests to limit erosion. thoughts?

Gambrel wofati?

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I like the gambrel form both for esthetic reasons (looks more cozy than rectangular forms, probably because humans lived in caves for so long and it looks more cave-like) and because of the forces involved it eliminates the need to bury posts with all the attendant rot problems. The following crude drawing is looking upslope.



The layers are:

sand (mainly to hold the epdm down and protect it from the sun, fairly thin layer to avoid a heavy roof)
epdm
loose straw
tyvek
wires, OSB, or whatever structural components

At the back of this house there will need to be excavation and trenches as with Oehler, but less of it because the house is narrower in the cross-slope dimension than it is in the upslope-downslope dimension. The pressure of the compressed straw and whatever snow loads there are act to press the lower roof in a way that is stable and does not need post holes to counter those forces. The water runs down the local (house) slope until it gets to ground level, then turns 90 degrees and continues down the major slope.

The red items are substantial logs, maybe 20 to 30 feet long. Assume the major logs are labelled 1 through 5, going from left to right (1 and 5 will be sitting on concrete foundation blocks). Between these logs are shorter vertical logs (blue lines) which support the upper structure. The correct angles (I like the angles of a regular gambrel, 135 degrees at each log, even though the drawing is not accurately showing that) are maintained by 3 loops of cable at each end of the major logs. There is a loop between logs 1 and 3; another loop between logs 2 and 4, and a final loop between logs 3 and 5. These loops are not shown in the picture. It's just possible these loops can be removed after the house is built and stabilized, but it would probably be safer to just leave them on (some experimentation is called for here).

No vertical interior logs are needed in the living space. Also there are some other connection between the long logs; I am visualizing the use of fencing wire which is tremendously cheap and strong, spaced about every 2 inches or so, supporting the tyvek. The wire would run from log 1 to log 5 and back again, over the top of the other logs, repeatedly. Some amount of sag should be put in these wires to reduce the strain on them (loads create infinite strain with very tight wires).

Using loose straw means those big round or rectangular bales that all farmers are moving to can be used here. Just buy a few and cart them up to the site and tear them apart, scattering the straw. Great use of a waste product. With the tyvek the straw can dry to the inside and not rot, yet being compressed it should be pretty fire-proof.

All light in this house comes from the endwalls. Substantial overhangs there are possible but too much would reduce interior lighting. Perhaps the overhangs can be greater toward the north and less on the south end.

The EPDM layer is easy because you just buy stock rectangular items and roll it out. It creates a nice large umbrella for long term heat storage, assuming your trenching efforts at the back of the house are deep enough. Neither straw underneath nor sand above is going to cause any punctures in the EPDM; however some thought is probably needed to keep heavy animals with sharp hooves off the house. Anyway EPDM can be repaired if you can get to it.

Comments?

Sepp shelter/ root cellar as a house

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So i was wonderin maybe somethin neat to do would be try and do a simple Sepp shelter, make an RMH in there, make a nice front wall and door. And see how it is to live in. Heck maybe even just put in a little fireplace and see if it would keep it warm.

Clear a spot about 10" wide and about 30" deep. Main posts every 10". Wall it in, maybe later cob the inside a bit?
For the walls just do simple wood like overlapping boards like shingles, cover with your felt etc, cover with billboard tarp, cover and pile up dirt.

The front wall could be lots of windows. Some tube roof things for sunlight.

Packed dirt floor with sand. Maybe cob it over or somethin.

Has anyone actually done a more filled out Sepp shelter to stay in?
Maybe someone doing this small and cheap could help ideas for on The Lab with making the Wofati in a more cheap and fast way.

Any input welcome (: Once i doodle some more i will get some pics on here to show better what i mean.
(Hope i put this in the right section. I couldnt think which might be better.)

Thanks!

free rubber roofing

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I don't know if this belongs in this forum, but here is a tip for all you Wofati/underground house builders. Commercial roofers, at least in this area, use a very thick durable type of rubber for roofing. When a large commercial building has the roof rebuilt, usually due to a tiny leak somewhere, all the rubber roofing is pulled off and replaced with new rubber. The rubber that is pulled off is as good as new and free for the taking. The life expectancy is measured in decades. I recently got 40,000 sq ft for free and the roofers were kind enough to load it on the trailer for me with their crane. I don't know how much that amount would cost but I'm guessing it would be expensive.
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